Mortal Kombat or Kombot

I want to know if you think that the series has been aimed more at doing combo attacks (offense) and strayed away from actual combat, i.e punching, blocking (such a dirty word), parrying, reversals, moving, escape and evade. It seems like the games are more designed to be more about offense (like it is some kind of bought off professional sport) than about fighting. I am saying that the series has taken what itself, Street Fighter and Killer Instinct have done and made the combo the focus of the fighting. Just so you know I am not in possession of my PS3 and I have not had a chance to play the reboot and I have only seen the footage from Youtube. Just once I would like to see the series balance the offensive combo heavy aspect of the game with more strategy and those other aforementioned aspects. Special moves that lunge, fly, jump, slide or teleport along with the projectiles are what I feel have been neglected in not just this but in many fighting series. Do you think that a more Hollywood style Kung-Fu game can work in this market?

[Jonnyrp]

Well offense is the main thing about fighting. That's an interesting question but even with how bad things were for Street fighter the first time they went 3d, well i guess this would be required in todays games to avoid the boredom after 2 or 3 fights. Or avoid ppl complaining and calling the other players spammers because they are too lame at jumping and blocking. They are the 2 most stupid means of defense a game still uses imo. (Instance: VF is a game that sets out to punish buttonmashers, with rare use of the jump and i'm ok with it. It makes use of evades and other counter attacks.) Some parrying and reversal stuff was introduced in 3d MK games which were alright. Wonder why they didn't keep these type of features, i just hated the fact that with MKD all the characters were equipped with the same Offense/Defense means like parry and breakers for every characters in MKA.

I wouldn't be against a return to the 3d. Maybe make it faster before you hit your opponents (Wonder why few ppl would use the forward dash back in the DA-MKA days.) but the first MK of the ps2 era puts all the follow ups to shame with its agressive combos (Power ups, Wall combos, weapon damage.)

I'm all for offense but as far as MK9 is clueless on the defensive aspect, look at all the patches added made to render the experience enjoyable for "Everyone" including turtling players. Add to that the fact that after playing the Demo once, i had to get accostumed to the fact that chars like Scorpion and Kabal were downgraded. Only 2 teleports in a row in a Scorpion combo? Kabal's Nomad being slowed down? "Hum, well Kenshi has a band so he doesn't always see guys such as Kabal or Flash coming."

Thanks guys, you broke the DEMO, so broke the whole game so to speak.

"We guys hate to compromise so much, that we will troll and break everyone's favorite character to please everyone expectations."

Man, why do you sell the game like an agressive and violent game before its released if you know it's going to be made a pussy fighter afterwards? They're laughting at gamers.

And this was supposed to be an heavy and agressive game? They were supposed to go too far? This is a joke already. Everything seems like a ps2 era MK on slow motion as far as combos are involved. Well MKA was kind of slow and those who wonder about the speed and agressivness i'm talking when discussing DA and MKD, well i have both the ps2 and Gamecube versions but played mostly the cube.

Back when the 2d was ruling and still relevant (The nineties), i remember how bad i loved MK games but also how bad many hated them and even me at times because there was basically nothing to do against free combos that some projectiles would provide. I assume many ppl still complain as always but i found way in the pit of players and i kept playing. The 3d brought some stuff on the side of defense even though the first player that was hit was still forced to watch himself getting trashed out and that is why i miss the 3d. I also miss the faces my old friend did the first 2 or 3 times i avoided is damn projectiles with a simple sidestep. Breaking a character instead of adding something to another on the side of defensive means is killing the whole fighting games area imo.

So, yes, the games are so focused on offense but compared to the fast combos they used to provide, along with MK9 came the Joke. This sounds so smooth that it's almost laughtable so that buttonmashers are back to basics: "Unleash hell" with lots of projectiles, teleport and spear moves no matter how bad they ignore what they're doing. Some of them are challenging, WTF!! They don't even have to bother thinking about defense. They get the feeling they're caught? They just have to repeat circling the directional inputs with speed and will end up teleporting out of the way, with a projectile as soon as they reapear. "Yeah! Look at that, i almost beat up Jade with Raiden and this is my first try!" MORTAL KOMBAT!

No offence, but at least with the 3d, a player who doesn't even feel like learning offense always ended up screwed after hitting the wrong input in the middle of a combo. Then he blame MKDA's timing. Here ya go. Go in the buttonmashing era being back and pretend you are great. So it makes the gaming competitive, off course, everyone can do something at it. The more, the marrier is that the saying?

Meh. I'm sure something can still be done about that franchise to bring back the agressivity (Talking combo speed and learning to input them.) but this last one is too slow. Even on offense. it is downgraded and yes, if you meant in your post that you would like to have more realism in the defensive aspects i agree.

Even if they came back with the 2d, i don't mind, if the gameplay and modes are interesting i'll say what i like and dislike about the games. No evades, no reversal but breakers? They are like Quan Chi and what he's becoming since he's seen everywhere: ZZZZZZ. But having the 8 way run back would be good news since i discovered with the 3d, that despite how bad of a spearing whore i was with Scorp, i do not want to stay in the way of a Scorpion's spear spammer or have to block each time. Let's face it: Yes, when i have a chance or an opening i am an Instant Geo Da Ray whore with Cervantes in Soul Calibur and i overused Scorpion Spear and fire moves. THE ONLY WAY i'm going to tolerate having to block or do the stupide jump over everytime though, is with Nitara if she's ever provided with a dive/offensive attack that i can master. The rest? Boredom kills me. "Nitty was so overpowered back when she arrived." So Kabal was in MK3. They broke him many times.

(Oh yeah, hell i used Nitara's name as instance once again. But i never said CERVANTES or SCORPION you guys are dreaming if you read them names.)

Oh, i thought you meant defense vs offense? Well, i wish this flu gets fixed. There should be defensive means no matter if they use the 2d or 3d.

The thing is, Ed himself is so full of guts that he agrees with the media about everything downgrading the 3d era of MK. He would say getting out of the way is lame when being attacked only for the media think it is "Hey, review MK9." "But boss, i'm not a fighting gamer." "It doesn't matter. We shut our mouth about how silly they were back then. Other medias said the step forward was impressive even though they think it was bad. But now that it returned to the 2d, and that 3 millions ppl liked it, say this one rules. So Boon will agree and shit on his past installments as long as we are nice. He will be."

Even though i spam about how bad i dislike the complaining, i'm taking it differently when a matter like defense gets in the way like you seem to bring it. After all, i have projectiles, i have teleports, i have big damage, i have cheap characters and unblockables to make use of so the players that want to have means to face me? Jump or just screw you all.:P

Geez. I'm a damn clown of this site.This will be my one and only post here. Promised.:P

[Da Repp Resents]

Originally Posted by Jonnyrp

Well offense is the main thing about fighting. That's an interesting question but even with how bad things were for Street fighter the first time they went 3d, well i guess this would be required in todays games to avoid the boredom after 2 or 3 fights. Or avoid ppl complaining and calling the other players spammers because they are too lame at jumping and blocking. They are the 2 most stupid means of defense a game still uses imo. (Instance: VF is a game that sets out to punish buttonmashers, with rare use of the jump and i'm ok with it. It makes use of evades and other counter attacks.) Some parrying and reversal stuff was introduced in 3d MK games which were alright. Wonder why they didn't keep these type of features, i just hated the fact that with MKD all the characters were equipped with the same Offense/Defense means like parry and breakers for every characters in MKA.

I wouldn't be against a return to the 3d. Maybe make it faster before you hit your opponents (Wonder why few ppl would use the forward dash back in the DA-MKA days.) but the first MK of the ps2 era puts all the follow ups to shame with its agressive combos (Power ups, Wall combos, weapon damage.)

I'm all for offense but as far as MK9 is clueless on the defensive aspect, look at all the patches added made to render the experience enjoyable for "Everyone" including turtling players. Add to that the fact that after playing the Demo once, i had to get accostumed to the fact that chars like Scorpion and Kabal were downgraded. Only 2 teleports in a row in a Scorpion combo? Kabal's Nomad being slowed down? "Hum, well Kenshi has a band so he doesn't always see guys such as Kabal or Flash coming."

Thanks guys, you broke the DEMO, so broke the whole game so to speak.

"We guys hate to compromise so much, that we will troll and break everyone's favorite character to please everyone expectations."

Man, why do you sell the game like an agressive and violent game before its released if you know it's going to be made a pussy fighter afterwards? They're laughting at gamers.

And this was supposed to be an heavy and agressive game? They were supposed to go too far? This is a joke already. Everything seems like a ps2 era MK on slow motion as far as combos are involved. Well MKA was kind of slow and those who wonder about the speed and agressivness i'm talking when discussing DA and MKD, well i have both the ps2 and Gamecube versions but played mostly the cube.

Back when the 2d was ruling and still relevant (The nineties), i remember how bad i loved MK games but also how bad many hated them and even me at times because there was basically nothing to do against free combos that some projectiles would provide. I assume many ppl still complain as always but i found way in the pit of players and i kept playing. The 3d brought some stuff on the side of defense even though the first player that was hit was still forced to watch himself getting trashed out and that is why i miss the 3d. I also miss the faces my old friend did the first 2 or 3 times i avoided is damn projectiles with a simple sidestep. Breaking a character instead of adding something to another on the side of defensive means is killing the whole fighting games area imo.

So, yes, the games are so focused on offense but compared to the fast combos they used to provide, along with MK9 came the Joke. This sounds so smooth that it's almost laughtable so that buttonmashers are back to basics: "Unleash hell" with lots of projectiles, teleport and spear moves no matter how bad they ignore what they're doing. Some of them are challenging, WTF!! They don't even have to bother thinking about defense. They get the feeling they're caught? They just have to repeat circling the directional inputs with speed and will end up teleporting out of the way, with a projectile as soon as they reapear. "Yeah! Look at that, i almost beat up Jade with Raiden and this is my first try!" MORTAL KOMBAT!

No offence, but at least with the 3d, a player who doesn't even feel like learning offense always ended up screwed after hitting the wrong input in the middle of a combo. Then he blame MKDA's timing. Here ya go. Go in the buttonmashing era being back and pretend you are great. So it makes the gaming competitive, off course, everyone can do something at it. The more, the marrier is that the saying?

Meh. I'm sure something can still be done about that franchise to bring back the agressivity (Talking combo speed and learning to input them.) but this last one is too slow. Even on offense. it is downgraded and yes, if you meant in your post that you would like to have more realism in the defensive aspects i agree.

Even if they came back with the 2d, i don't mind, if the gameplay and modes are interesting i'll say what i like and dislike about the games. No evades, no reversal but breakers? They are like Quan Chi and what he's becoming since he's seen everywhere: ZZZZZZ. But having the 8 way run back would be good news since i discovered with the 3d, that despite how bad of a spearing whore i was with Scorp, i do not want to stay in the way of a Scorpion's spear spammer or have to block each time. Let's face it: Yes, when i have a chance or an opening i am an Instant Geo Da Ray whore with Cervantes in Soul Calibur and i overused Scorpion Spear and fire moves. THE ONLY WAY i'm going to tolerate having to block or do the stupide jump over everytime though, is with Nitara if she's ever provided with a dive/offensive attack that i can master. The rest? Boredom kills me. "Nitty was so overpowered back when she arrived." So Kabal was in MK3. They broke him many times.

(Oh yeah, hell i used Nitara's name as instance once again. But i never said CERVANTES or SCORPION you guys are dreaming if you read them names.)

Oh, i thought you meant defense vs offense? Well, i wish this flu gets fixed. There should be defensive means no matter if they use the 2d or 3d.

The thing is, Ed himself is so full of guts that he agrees with the media about everything downgrading the 3d era of MK. He would say getting out of the way is lame when being attacked only for the media think it is "Hey, review MK9." "But boss, i'm not a fighting gamer." "It doesn't matter. We shut our mouth about how silly they were back then. Other medias said the step forward was impressive even though they think it was bad. But now that it returned to the 2d, and that 3 millions ppl liked it, say this one rules. So Boon will agree and shit on his past installments as long as we are nice. He will be."

Even though i spam about how bad i dislike the complaining, i'm taking it differently when a matter like defense gets in the way like you seem to bring it. After all, i have projectiles, i have teleports, i have big damage, i have cheap characters and unblockables to make use of so the players that want to have means to face me? Jump or just screw you all.:P

Geez. I'm a damn clown of this site.This will be my one and only post here. Promised.:P

Feel free to keep posting your thoughts man. I thought they were insightful. My gripe is the fact that if you have a combo system that requires timing then you should have a counterpart to is requires timing to counter every attempted hit. What I am trying to say is simply this. When MKDA (which is awesome btw) came out it had weapons, swords, staffs, sais, knives, batons etc. but there was no dueling like you see in the prologue for MKD or MKA. It was one guy attacks the other guy blocks (dirty). I want action, I want strategy, I don't want the turtling aspect of fighting in this series and even though yes I can be guilty of turtling myself I want to learn to be skillful. So instead of the prior statement when a person strikes with the sword I want to counter it and have it be like actual Japanese sword play. Remember playing Prince of Persia for the SNES? When he met an enemy with a sword if the enemy was good you would have a lengthy sword battle back and forth neither side having an edge. A guy on youtube named Egoraptor made a comment about Castlevania (awesome) that I think sums up gaming in a nutshell. Do you feel a sense of accomplishment when you grind for a while get the best sword and wail on him till he falls, or do you feel the most satisfied when you use your wicked cunning to get around super perilous obstacles? The same can be said for fighting games. Which is more satisfying, turtling, spamming, using cheap methods and comboing your enemy to death all to get to the punchline (i.e the fatality)? Or do you like genuinely being challenged, having a match where both sides are equally skilled and passionate about the match and where even if you lose you feel satisfied but still wanted more because the match did not stay on one place in the battle space? I guess no one wants to devote time to honing their skills to play this game like a musical instrument. BTW do you have recent posts on MKDA? That game had so much good in it and so many possibilities as to where the sequels could go. Which unfortunately they did not do.

[Jonnyrp]

Right back at you dude. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, MKDA was not the perfect example of offense vs defense. I just thought the additions of Reversal, the 8 way run off course and characters that might not have Free combos or the long range weapons could be master for they had means like the easy Sub backslide, Nitara's wings use to distance herself. The challenge was interesting because chars had different means and different abilities. The defense not perfect but a step forward was clearly added on that side. I have a MKDA review here but too long and sloppy when comes the humorous aspect of it. Too non pertaining. The cool aspects of the look and gameplay are considerd though.

I will give spammers this: Most fighting games have that buttonmasher type of character. Instance: Maxi in Soul Calibur. The first time i tried him was online in SC4 and i was winning. I'm used to play as Cervantes and Ivy so i was kind of backlashed a lot when playing as Maxi. "Will you please stop buttonmashing?" "Nah man Maxi? It's pure skills."

That being said, if you played games such as Virtua fighter, you are aware that they're more realistic and use great offensive tactics. King of fighters? Kind of stand more in the fantasy aspect than VF but from what i remember throwing a good punch that will connect was so hard for a first time player, let alone the devastating combo.

I totally agree with you, that you play fighting games or other types of games, the means to get out of an embarassing situation should matter and be provided to the ones who want to learn them. I don't think it is what put MK to shame to have to learn how to deal with a certain character's offensive or defensive means. But what bored me so fast about MK9 arcade is in part what we are discussing about. The so little possibilities of the fighting aspects and the too numerous ressemblances between all the characters in terms of abilities.

For instance, if only 2 chars would teleport. Or if they downgraded the amount of projectiles. But if they intend to keep all of that, this is only my word but the lack on the side of counter/defense makes it blank.

I learn to play shooters since most of my friends play them. And learned Rock Band to have some nights of mindless fun so i'm totally about the skills aspects. Some games are still focused on thoughts and mastering a feature fully but the fighting area of this generation is really disapointing dude. Beat up a guy who totally ignores what he's doing and end up looking good sometimes so he'll keep spamming or be beaten by a buttonmasher that ignores how he ends up using all these great projectiles and special moves.

To be honest, i haven't played SC5's demo and haven't tried the game yet, but i was disapointed with 4. Rare are the fighting games of this generation that i still play but SF4 and VF5. I agree that good sword fights, fists fights or whatever could be brought up in fighters could make it interesting but it requires the step forward. Look at adventure games. But sadly, it seems like it won't happen. No one wants to challenge an opponent or be challenged that bad. They want to have a good time no matter how bad they are.

Since this is general MK i might finally put some of my ideas for certain chars, aspects in order and post them here when i find them and i'm done polishing them all.

Making reviews short and clear:

MK1 to MK3 era overall: 7.5/10 I had a lot of fun.

Disliked the MK4 era except for some new chars. Way too dark. Disliked the gameplay.

MKDA: Looks 10/10, gameplay (Overall): 9/10, difficulty 8/10 (One of the most challenging in the franchise.), Value 10.

MKD was great but had lost mostly on the side of the challenge. A little on the side of gameplay (Lacks originality in all aspects of it compared to DA. But DA showed a lot of ambition.)

The other games? Some fun i've had with MKvsDC despite the fact there are a lot of flaws and there was nothing impressive on any aspects of it.

MK9: Looks 8.5/10, gameplay 7/10. The rest? The overall game i rated lower than 5/10 so i was bored really quickly.

[Da Repp Resents]

Stuff in MKDA that should have been left in and wasn't. Side Step Swing and the camera shift when you hit the enemy with it or a hard hit move. Some of the booby traps better than death traps. That is just a couple that I can think of at the moment. One thing about the PS2 titles that wasn't emphasized was jumping in over projectiles it was ground based. Once again taking away from the movement and action. If Mortal Kombat and other games were more like """"BOMBERMAN"""" you would have so much better gaming.

[Jonnyrp]

Good points. Not a fan of using the jump though. I would sidestep in close range in the MKDA-MKD games.

Technical stuff that MK could make use of:

-Throw evade from SC and VF, and probably other games have that.
-Guard impact when fighting with weapons. SC has that, at the time you block with your weapon, you just push the enemy back and you suddenly have the edge. Then once a guard impact connects, we know if the player is skilled enough to follow up with a smart combo/action or just mashing buttons randomly. SC also has that feature where you can deviate your opponents attacks with your weapon while making use of the 8 way run.

-An adventure MK game with a great gameplay could provide you with a feature where you can disarm your foe.

-VF throw evades and stuns. I'm a big fan of stun moves. Especially the ones you can input as a defensive mean first to block the attack and stun the opponent with it like a parry.

This is just a couple ideas that fighting games have been using to add some challenge and avoid redundance in fights or boredom. It's a little hard i know just to be able to be fast enough each time to correctly input these defensive controls, but it's what makes games fun imo. Some games just don't know how to make use of some of that and keep it or ameliorate it with a next game.

[Da Repp Resents]

I know I probably mentioned this in one form or another but the booby traps in MKDA were a great idea. I am a great fan of Bomberman and it's forced action gameplay presentation. When you mentioned the Sub Zero backslide and Nitara's retreat it made me realize just how much this game could have benefitted from a bigger emphasis on jumping (I know you are not a fan) and the booby trap some of which were pretty good in MKD.
One thing I want to say is I wish they would have or consider is having a skills option and a buttonmasher game option. Why will they not satisfy both demographics is beyond me. After all combos require skill to do. I don't get it. By the way Nitara is hot.

[Jonnyrp]

To the last sentence of your post: Yeah, she is.

LOL! I would be curious to see an option in games below the novice option and called Buttonmashing. Your girlfriend or brother in law hates to have his ass whooped everytime so they'll probably play each fighting game only once? Here comes an option for them. The 4 basic attacks? No need to learn, the A.I is the same on that feature, punching the air until the opponent starts a combo.

Seriously, i think fighting games in general already satisfy both but that is without considering the fact that you said you wanted more realistic moves and actions to learn for skilled players off course.

When i think about playing DA again i'll check if Sub Zero, i guess Shang Tsung and others who have these quick evades moves can avoid a special move like Jax's ground pound but Nitara is in the air when performing her retreat so she's somewhat jumping. What happened to Jump in the ps2 era is it was kind of render useless sadly. Even the A.I opponent would use a projectile or a hit/Combo when you are in the air and you would take more damage. So i learned my best how to do the same against a jumping opponent. I still jump sometimes with the 3d MK mostly when my enemy is down and far from me after a combo, just so i get in close before he gets up.

[Da Repp Resents]

I just had a stupid brilliant idea that I believe can actually solve the defense dilemma that I have been thinking about since Street Fighter II and I think this actually can work. At the beginning of each fight there will be a series of button sequences (i.e HP, HP, BL, UP) maybe it will be long or maybe not. Each players duty is to remember their own separate sequences. Now this will apply to close combat only. If player two throws a LP within arms distance of player 1 as long as player 1 throws HP then the LP will be parried and deflected. However, this does not mean an automatic counter attack I.E. Street Fighter 3 it will though allow player one to immediately throw a punch kick or whatever but like with player one if player two remembers his list then he will counter and we have tit for tat Hollywood Matrix style fighting instead of sit and block spamming. Who ever messes up the sequence will be hit and then can be reasonably and fairly comboed. No gripes, all is fair. The two lists will run in lists of three to five and will scroll along the bottom of the screen slowly at first and gain speed. Similar to DDR stay with the sequence or your opponent bitch slaps you if your lucky. If you miss wildly with a punch or kick then the list speeds up dramatically. You have to hit the appropriate button or direction within a circle as the list continues to scroll. This can work for close air combat as well. Now you are probably wondering how will you make HP be anything other than HP just press and hold a different button say R1 to engage this parry fest to which the computer or the designer will decide how the parries and counter strikes come out. Release R1 to restore the attack buttons to their normal assignments. Now supposin, juuuuuuuust supposin Scorpion wants to throw his spear or teleport or whatever. No problem, no kidding. Just immediately release R1 and do your special move and hope the other person doesn't succefully counter and I mean counter. NO MORE BLOCKING AND SPAMMING AND CHEAPING. I don't want to hear anything about his being too hard to learn as most of you probably play other games like Halo online with your friends or other games where you have to watch a lot of shit coming at you at once. If you can learn to be good at those games **** you I am jealous I mean then you can learn this. You got skillz don't ya? And that is what it shall be called sKills Kombat. Anyway that is my take on it. Any questions of things I may have missed? Oh by the way if players are so pissed by this then fine you can have the option of keeping the old combat setting just as long as this has its own separate setting in the options menu. Sequence tap instead of button smashing.

[Jonnyrp]

So when this series of buttons appear, the first to input his series correctly would have the edge so to speak? This idea's not bad. Wonder how this would work out but you make a point. PPl that learn how to input a series of control in action/adventures like GOW for instance which i love should be able to learn this. Unless they're not willing to.