Mortal Kombat or Kombot

I want to know if you think that the series has been aimed more at doing combo attacks (offense) and strayed away from actual combat, i.e punching, blocking (such a dirty word), parrying, reversals, moving, escape and evade. It seems like the games are more designed to be more about offense (like it is some kind of bought off professional sport) than about fighting. I am saying that the series has taken what itself, Street Fighter and Killer Instinct have done and made the combo the focus of the fighting. Just so you know I am not in possession of my PS3 and I have not had a chance to play the reboot and I have only seen the footage from Youtube. Just once I would like to see the series balance the offensive combo heavy aspect of the game with more strategy and those other aforementioned aspects. Special moves that lunge, fly, jump, slide or teleport along with the projectiles are what I feel have been neglected in not just this but in many fighting series. Do you think that a more Hollywood style Kung-Fu game can work in this market?

[Da Repp Resents]

Well, I am still trying to visualize how it would be done. I suppose it could be at the VS screen or on the ladder screen. Basically, at the beginning of the match you would have the button sequence at the top of the screen and then move down to the bottom. I am still trying to figure out if it would be more practical and engaging for the player if the button sequence changes by AI or if it should be done with the next set of punches or kicks thrown by the player, i.e start with HP, HK, LK and then when say a LP is thrown then the list reads HK,LK,LP then maybe another LK and the list reads LK,LP,LK and so on. So in essence the system would be a bit of an AI Tool Assist. I have to be real about this desire for non-blocking combat. A jab can be thrown at any time and it is just about impossible to anticipate such a move. It's not like actual fighting where you can see it coming easier as you are face to face where this is basically 2d at a distance fighting. But I would really like to see this come to pass, though it may have a lot of flaws its just light years ahead of blocking and spamming.

I forgot to mention something else I hate about the combo heavy stuff in MK. One using jabs to juggle and bouncing people off of the ground. Garbarge.

[Jonnyrp]

That's another thing. I get the fact that the strongest or more powerful characters such as the bosses in MK are kind of cheap, resulting in big damage with one simple LP or whatever. If they intend to keep them this way i'm ok with it. But you make a good point. Almost every character, if not all of them have that ability to make the opponent bounce on the floor and go in mid air or have a move that guarantees a lot of juggling right after.

I'm not against juggling combos, they should just tone it down i agree. Maybe a specific amount of characters would have that feature instead of having chars such as Sonya being able to render the opponent impotent and open for a guaranteed combo with one move that would provide Juggling. But i still wonder how it would look like if it was to disappear totally.

[Da Repp Resents]

So are you not a fan of jumping at all or do you just hate the whole abuse of it like blocking? I sense that like me you want a diverse match that is full of action and movemet by both players. Castlevania 1 and Bomberman are the just a couple of examples that can parallel the type of action any and all video games should have IMO.
I wanted to make mention of something you said that was poignant.
" No offense, but at least with the 3d, a player who doesn't even feel like learning offense always ended up screwed after hitting the wrong input in the middle of a combo. Then he blame MKDA's timing. Here ya go. Go in the button mashing era being back and pretend you are great. So it makes the gaming competitive, off course, everyone can do something at it. The more, the merrier is that the saying? "
What you said about the timing of combos brings up an interesting issue. Why is it that we have never seen a timing tutorial in a Konquest or training mode? We see how to do the combos in MKDA, D, A , MKvsDC, and MK 9 but do we see the timing of when to press the buttons in rhythm like in Guitar Hero or a derivative of that game's engine. In MKDA training mode there is a training mode for timed blocking. A timer counts down 3,2,1 and then the computer attacks you to which you can anticipate blocking. What I would like to see is said about the fighting in SW the Phantom Menace. Where only one move is right and you can see it. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Duo Bian]

Hey Repp. I finally got around to reading your posts. You have an interesting idea for defense, but I'm not sure how well that would work. I do agree that more does need to be done with the defense aspects of the gameplay, and I too liked the defensive maneuvers in MK: Deadly Alliance. I feel that parries should return, but they need to be fluid like in other fighting games. I really hated how stiff and clunky the look and feel of MK: Armageddon's parries were. Not only should parries return, but we should have both a high/mid parry and a low parry for the characters.

When it comes to things like blocking, I feel that instead of having the block/guard button, MK could incorporate a "defense" button in which the fighter gets into a more defensive position to evade, counterattack, etc. as a means of attacks, especially against rushdown characters. I think of the counterattack button used in Batman: Arkham Asylum, which helps deal with attackers from all sides, and it works nicely in the flow of combat as opposed to a stagnant block.

The defense button would simply prep the character for a defensive tactic, and it would be a button that the player would have to hold down. However, he/she can freely move the character unlike with the block button. While holding down the defense button, you could have different defensive options with the face buttons and maybe even with some of the other shoulder buttons. I feel that this concept could have worked really nicely with MKDA-MKA's usage of martial arts styles, but it could work with the fighting mechanics that MK 2011 has.

[Da Repp Resents]

Thanks for the reply. Yep another MKDA fan like myself. There was a guy on here named Forrest Demon that was passionate about styles and their vast untapped defensive applications like yourself and I. My aim is to get players to be in rhythm with each other so the matches are not block and combo and spam fests. To hell with that sheise. I want a match that is intersting and innovative. The stuff we have seen for the past 21 or so years with the fighting genre is HACKNEYED. If people can learn combos and really care about the franchise they can learn this. I have one more post to make on this issue. BTW if you read all the posts on this topic I think I made a post about using a button to change the assignment of different attacks and defenses. That's cool that we are thinking along the same lines.

Ok, I got it. Solved it. The button sequence will be what both players have to put in simultaneously but for the sake of time lets substitute HP, LP, HK etc for letters and words. When the two combatants get within arms distance of each other they will engage in close combat signified by some sound effect. That is your starting gun. Unlike MKvsDC it works without needing guessing. Let's say the word Kombat is at the bottom of the screen. We make it a race to see who can input the word fastest. If a both players are the same speed and keep in rhythm with the input then they will just cross arms, fists, knees and legs but no damage will be taken. If P1 is slightly faster than P2 then P2 will deflect his moves provided he stays relatively in rhythm but P1 will be aided in the following ways. 1. He will force his opponent to back pedal (movement). 2. There will be a tug o war meter at the top of the screen (think the block meter in SFA3) if he wins the tug o war than his move will penentrate P2s defense and strike him allowing for a fair combo opportunity. 3. He will also win a breaker icon or rhythm breaker that can be used at any time
in CC to break rhythm and attack. Essentially it will buffer the animation so he can stun the opponent go right into a combo or use a special move. It can also be used defensively to break a combo as well. I recognize the lack of freedom of choice this may impose for people wanting a more free form style of match. My contention is that this is better than the old engine where blocking and turtling seems to run rampant. Keep in mind I am not saying we do away totally with the old system but add this into the mix.

[Jonnyrp]

^^ Both of your ideas are really good. games could or should start making use of some more technical stuff. But as i said,

Da Repp Resents: We are thinking somewhere along the same lines. I'm not a fan of jump but i'm not against. I use it. I'll even use it in 3d, mostly when my opponent is down after a combo. Just to get in close safely. But the 2d, especially MK, kind of rushes players to overuse it since there is no mean to use a simple sidestep and immediately counter hits/grabs. In 2d MK, players basically use the jump to move forward instead of inputting the forward button 2 times to dash. They use jump to avoid projectiles, avoid sweep, they use it to advance forward and once they land they just start a combo. Land after a jump and then the opponent has nothing else to do but to block the whole combo (Unless his special bar is high enough to provide with a breaker.)

In fact, i see so much jumping in MK2011 that i guess i haven't even seen as much in other 2d games i like, i.e: SF. But i play games where i have to make use of the jump to advance forward or defend myself. In fighters though, too much is like not having the use of the jump at all.

Blocking is a different story. There should be some more strategies but i deal with it better than the jump. Just bores me a little faster repeating the 2 when there's no counterhit or no evade like sidestep to make use of. Along with a lot of ambition in the look, i think parry, reversal and yes once again the so underrated 8 way run, this is in big part why i got back to MK when DA came out and why i think this so called failed system had a more diverse and interesting gameplay than this reboot. Once again, no offence but yeah, someone smashing the controllers doesn't end up failing a combo most of the time. Many will in fact input a non sense combo even if it has only 3 hits and repeat it without knowing what they do. Failing a combo because you input the wrong button is bad i know, but i still like to take the time to learn a character or 2.

Not everything is bad about MK9, but i guess i was waiting for the same kind of evolution in many aspects of the game that i saw when i first tried the previous 3d games.

In one word, this is only a dream but since MKD was really fun although it could have been called MK2 Reborn, now that they have a reboot of the 3 first MK with only better graphics and a couple clones/boring new chars, i wish they could just redo MKDA, in terms of how much was added to the gameplay and ambition towards character creation and arenas. Storywise too of course. To Ed Boon: Having only 1 or 2 new chars in a game is alright man. Unless it starts over with another new cryomancer, another new cyborg or another new Mileena/Nitara/Kitana all mixed up in one hot chick.

Vogel used to show some balls going out of the "3 heroes saving earthrealm with Kung Fu" mentality and added a box in which there was a lot of potential for future games. MKD was really good but they started to lose everything after MKDA, even all the great stuff they pulled out of their hats for that particular one.

[Duo Bian]

To Repp: I feel that if a close kombat mode is going to be implemented, I would love to see an incorporation of a mechanic similar to that used in the Tobal games where you can grapple onto the opponent in a clinch and move around. You can pull or push the opponent and do various moves like knee attacks, kicks, and even throws.

Watch this: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

If the fighting mechanics in MKDA-MKA were more like Tobal's, the game would be SO much better.

Going back to my defense button concept, when a player holds that button down, he/she could perform a command to do a reversal. It would have to be well-timed, but it would have a good reward. If we're talking about a 3D MK game, the different directional buttons could incorporate bobbing and weaving motions when holding down the defense button. The different face buttons can be little evasive maneuvers as well.

For example, let's say that Scorpion uses Ninjutsu. When holding down the defense button and pressing/holding FK (Front Kick/Attack 3), he would go into a posture called Hichō no Kamae (Flying Bird Posture) in which he lifts up his front leg, much like Sektor's U + FK stance in MK 2011. If Scorpion quickly lifts it up, it could simply be to evade a low attack. However, the player could hold the button to trick the opponent and from there, he/she can use different moves, such as a stomp kick to the chest for a stumble or knockdown or even a jumping kick for a knockdown or pop up.

Here's another idea: If blocking is going to be kept, why not incorporate a meter that gets drained every time a character blocks a hit? Once the meter is drained, blocking is disabled for that character until the meter fills back up.

To Jonnyrp: At least with blocking, you can use throws to punish characters that try to block too much. With jumping, my understanding is that jumping too much in MK2011 will hurt a player in the long run. This is especially considering that you have various characters with anti-air moves (e.g. Nightwolf's grab and shoulder ram).

I like MKD myself, but boy was it even more broken than MKDA. It was ridiculous how badly Bo' Rai Cho, Dairou, and Noob-Smoke dominated that game. Then again, MKDA's version of Scorpion was just as bad.

If MKDA was to be redone, and the fighting mechanics (especially the defense) were greatly improved, NRS could actually make much better usage of the martial arts styles. It made perfect sense to me for at least most of the MK characters to use actual martial arts styles. The execution could have been better though.

Although this is off topic, I will say that John Vogel should be given credit for what he's tried to do with the story in the past, particularly with Armageddon. The problem with him is that he doesn't have as much control over the story elements as he would probably like to have.

[Jonnyrp]

Yeah. What annoyed me the most about the fighting system back in the MKDA-MKA era was only the repeated press of the L1 button to change fighting styles in the middle of a combo. i.e: VF games have characters that use more than one fighting styles, but you don't have to repeat pressing some same button. A certain combo will automatically end with the stance of the second fighting style. If you can keep up with your combo, you will either end in the second style or come back in the previous one automatically depending on the way you choose to end it.

Yes, finally the grab is a good thing to use against ppl who block to much. It was about time the realize that.

[Da Repp Resents]

Here's another idea: If blocking is going to be kept, why not incorporate a meter that gets drained every time a character blocks a hit? Once the meter is drained, blocking is disabled for that character until the meter fills back up.

They actually did that in SFA3 which made it have more depth. I think definitely you could add that in conjunction with the tug o war meter for close combat. My feeling is in order to move away from the turtle and block or stick poke at a bear paradigm is for you to allow only for timed blocking. Basically the person who attacks successfully will have to be really skillful because with the system I am advocating as long as the players can input combos successfully then attacking and combo smashing your opponents into tiny bits as a human being become less abundant. Here is another thing you could add on to the tug o war and word/symbol input idea. If one player is genuinely faster he can let the meter drain a little bit to allow the other player to attack first. Since, player one is faster if he enters his input a little bit slower than P2 he gets the freedom, option of either deflecting (I almost typed blocking) or ducking, dodging, evading, or grappling if you so desire. as long as P2 stays ahead on the tug of war he gets that advantage as well.

I might try Tobal 2. Looks interesting although I am not so much a grapple fan. More of the elude evade style of fighting. Nothing wrong with grappling though.

One last thing to keep in mind, close combat is not to be the end all of fighting as there will be obstacles, booby traps and outside interference to force the the player to move and leave the ground on occasions. It's about movement after all.

[Duo Bian]

Originally Posted by Jonnyrp

Yeah. What annoyed me the most about the fighting system back in the MKDA-MKA era was only the repeated press of the L1 button to change fighting styles in the middle of a combo. i.e: VF games have characters that use more than one fighting styles, but you don't have to repeat pressing some same button. A certain combo will automatically end with the stance of the second fighting style. If you can keep up with your combo, you will either end in the second style or come back in the previous one automatically depending on the way you choose to end it.

Yes, finally the grab is a good thing to use against ppl who block to much. It was about time the realize that.

The way the characters switched between styles in MK was kind of static, and it didn't have the sort of fluidity that is in the VF games. As of now, I'm of the view that most characters in MK should have their fighting style be derived from multiple martial arts styles while someone like Drahmin would benefit from a style-changing system. You can still do that in the MK 2011 fighting system with the mini stances. I could see his Netherrealm mode and his Oni mode.

As for grabbing, they sort of had that as an anti-block maneuver in the old games if I'm not mistaken, but I hated how throws were done in those games. In MKDA, grabs were blockable, which was stupid, so I'm glad they fixed that in MKD. However, some of the throws in MKD (e.g. Smoke's) were problematic, because they led to cheap tactics.

Originally Posted by Da Repp Resents

Here's another idea: If blocking is going to be kept, why not incorporate a meter that gets drained every time a character blocks a hit? Once the meter is drained, blocking is disabled for that character until the meter fills back up.

They actually did that in SFA3 which made it have more depth. I think definitely you could add that in conjunction with the tug o war meter for close combat. My feeling is in order to move away from the turtle and block or stick poke at a bear paradigm is for you to allow only for timed blocking. Basically the person who attacks successfully will have to be really skillful because with the system I am advocating as long as the players can input combos successfully then attacking and combo smashing your opponents into tiny bits as a human being become less abundant. Here is another thing you could add on to the tug o war and word/symbol input idea. If one player is genuinely faster he can let the meter drain a little bit to allow the other player to attack first. Since, player one is faster if he enters his input a little bit slower than P2 he gets the freedom, option of either deflecting (I almost typed blocking) or ducking, dodging, evading, or grappling if you so desire. as long as P2 stays ahead on the tug of war he gets that advantage as well.

I might try Tobal 2. Looks interesting although I am not so much a grapple fan. More of the elude evade style of fighting. Nothing wrong with grappling though.

One last thing to keep in mind, close combat is not to be the end all of fighting as there will be obstacles, booby traps and outside interference to force the the player to move and leave the ground on occasions. It's about movement after all.

That's pretty interesting. When we talked before, we had also brought up the shoves from MKDA. They did serve as a sort of nice guard break technique even though it was something Scorpion should not have had due to the shove-hellfire nonsense.

Timed blocking is something I had thought about as well. That could tie into the idea I had about holding down a "defense button" and pressing one of the face buttons for a defensive maneuver. If some of the face buttons involve timed blocks, you could have high, mid, and low blocks, and you'd have to be smart about which to use and when to use them.

About grappling, it doesn't have to be too strongly implemented into the gameplay. It would at least be nice to see it in throws and command grapples (e.g. Jax's back breaker) like in MK 2011. I would say that for a character that would be about counterattacks, using grapples as reversals would be nice to see.